We need to change the parenthood narrative - feat. Georgie Dent

What if Australia was more progressive around our policies around parental leave and early childcare? How would that affect families, and the whole country, on a wider scale? In this episode, I speak with  Georgie Dent, founder of The Parenthood. She dives into all of the benefits and statistical evidence around the earlier years and how detrimental it is to change our current system.

Georgie Dent is a prominent and passionate advocate for women’s empowerment, families and children. She is the executive director of The Parenthood, a not-for-profit parent advocacy group representing over 77,000 parents, carers and supporters. When she’s not parenting or sleeping she is campaigning for free quality early childhood education and care and adequate paid parental leave.

The former lawyer is a regular guest on ABC's The Drum, The Today Show and The Project and has made appearances on Q&A, Lateline, Weekend Sunrise, Studio 10, and Sky News. Her work has appeared in The Guardian, The Financial Review, The Sydney Morning Herald, Sunday Life, Marie Claire, The New Daily and Harpers Bazaar. She has researched and published work on subjects from parental leave equality, violence against women, childcare, sexism, pay equity and women in leadership.

Georgie is the best-selling author of Breaking Badly, a memoir that was published by Affirm Press in May 2019. Annabel Crabb described it as ‘funny, shocking, beautifully written … a fascinating account of one woman’s hand-to-hand combat with her own mind’.

She lives in Sydney with her husband and their three daughters.

You can find her at:
Instagram @theparenthood
Facebook The Parenthood Project
Twitter the_parenthood
Twitter georgiedent

Buy Georgie's book 'Breaking Badly' here. 

Read the Smart Company article I referenced Sexual discrimination at work needs to end, and small businesses can lead the way here.

Join the conversation with me over on:
Instagram @iamtaraladd
Linkedin tarajoyladd
Website taraladd.com

Transcript

Tara Ladd: 0:00

Just a heads up if you've got little ears around this podcast contains some swearing. Hi, you're listening to the Word, a straight shooter podcast that generates real conversations about the systemic issues surrounding working women motherhood, business ownership, and society as a whole. I'm your host Tara Ladd, owner of brand design agency, your one and only mother of two boys and a champion working in a balanced society. Hi, guys, I'm here today with Georgie den. And I want to swing the mic over to her and let her introduce herself.

Georgie Dent: 0:46

Hi, Tara, thank you so much for having me on today. So my name is Georgie and I wear a few different hats. I am coming to you from my home in North Sydney today. And I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, the camera legal people of the Eora Nation and I would like to pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging. So a couple of the different hats I wear. I am a mum of three, our daughters, we have all girls, and they are now six, nine and 11. So we're sort of through the earlier stages that I know you're at right now

Tara Ladd: 1:28

in the thick of it.

Georgie Dent: 1:31

So yes, I am a mum of three, my day job is running a not for profit organisation called The Parenthood. And we are our mission is to make Australia the best place in the world to be a parent. And the reason that that's our mission is because it is only when parents and carers of children are supported that kids can actually thrive. So we can't say that we're a country that cares about children, if we're not a country that cares about parents and carers and all the people that play those critical roles around children. So we basically advocate for positive policy changes for families. I'm also a an author, I wrote a book that was published in 2019, called breaking badly. And it was a memoir that covered the nervous breakdown that I experienced when I was aged. What would happen between being 24 and 25, I was working as a corporate lawyer, I was managing a number of sort of chronic autoimmune conditions, and I sort of fell apart. So I wrote a book about that. I've worked as a journalist for the last decade, and I've been pretty passionate and determined for the last decade that Australia can do a lot better for women in this country. And that's sort of how I came to be in the role I am at the parenthood, but does that cover it from your

Tara Ladd: 2:54

shoulders? I just love everything that you do. I think that you're just such a great advocate for so many different things. And I mean, even from that, you know, that high level corporate working women, knowing when that redlining is happening, and I think that's such an important thing as well. And then throwing yourself off three kids, I like that gives me anxiety. Now, I know how hard it is to but, you know, I always have my utmost respect to those that could do that. And then, you know, trying to work and run a career at the same time. It's just, it's so hard. And I think like, obviously, everyone knows, this is why this podcast exists. But I just love the fact that you're advocating for, you know, carers and parents, because, like, and as everyone knows, my child had a transplant. And I think the thing that used to, I guess really break me was when everyone was like, How is Ari? How is Ari? And I'm like, I'm fine. Thanks for asking, like, you know what I mean, it's just, it is that breaking point. And I think that having, I guess having a something caring about those people is really important. So I love that you're doing that. So let me jump into my questions that I've got listed for you. So I personally love a lot of things that you're aligned with. And you know, I've personally loved the recent International Women's Day campaign that you're a part of calling for women to step up. It was, you know, not only incredible, it was just emotional. Like to me, I felt really like empowered by that. So another thing you do with you know, and I guess that's the parenthood and I guess, I guess what you're doing is is the parenthood is what I want to kind of want to dive into. More specifically, I think I want to shout out to people to follow the Parenthood because I found myself stumbling upon the content. Obviously, it just slotted straight into my algorithm, but I wanted to dive into I guess, the messages that you're trying to send with the parenthood and I know you've just recently touched on it, but I want to dive into it a bit more because I think that it's just so important, and not only from and I know that we have a lot of guilelessness, so it's from your perspective. DivX as well guys like this is not just supporting women, it is supporting the family unit. And I think I love the narrative that the parenthood sends. And it supports that notion as well. So I'm going to ask you to talk about that. Georgie, if you can,

Georgie Dent: 5:13

yeah, sure. So look, there's, as I said, so our starting point is that we want to make Australia the best place in the world to be a parent. Yeah. Now, one of the things that we are working really hard on is having a conversation with parents and carers, that it is incredibly difficult to juggle family with paid work in this country. And it is not difficult because you're doing it wrong. And it is not difficult because you're making the wrong choices. It's not difficult because you aren't equipped as a parent, it is really difficult for parents to manage their carrying responsibilities with their paid work, because all of our policies, entrench and outdated model that doesn't match our reality. So, you know, we have got here in Australia, the cost of living is obviously significant. Whether or not you live in, in a city or in regional and rural areas, you know, because of COVID. Even in regional areas, housing affordability has just completely I should say, housing unaffordability has completely exploded. We know that parents in Australia pay some of the most expensive fees in the world for early childhood education and care. We know that parents in Australia are entitled to 18 weeks pay at the minimum wage as the paper and now when I tell you that in the OECD, so roughly 40 of the richest countries in the world, the average length of paid leave is 50 weeks.

Tara Ladd: 6:50

Yeah, wow. And when you look at it,

Georgie Dent: 6:54

as a replacement wage, the OECD average is about 37 weeks, and Australian parents get 7.6 weeks if you're looking at it as a replacement wage. Now, the point the thing is, you don't it's ridiculous that we ever need to point this out. But when you have a baby, the cost of living doesn't just evaporate, your landlord or your other bank doesn't say oh, don't worry about rent, don't worry about the mortgage, your costs stay the same at a minimum in lots of ways they actually increase because suddenly, you've got another little person to take care of defeat to, you know, all of the paraphernalia that you need with kids. Now, when a family looks down the barrel of that first year of a child's life, which is the most richly formative time, in any little person's life, just because of the brain connections that occur, it is almost impossible for most families to do that easily with with a reduction in like down to one income. And then that's not even taking into account the sort of emotional and physical upheaval that happens when you become a parent. Because I mean, as you just said, We, in your experience, having a baby that has significant medical needs. So early on, is not something that you can sort of plan for or plan around. And the thing is, while that is an incredibly extreme example, and I am so sorry that you and your family experienced that. There are very few situations where a baby comes along, and it just slots in and the parents aren't going through a fairly radical transformation 100% You know, it is the most sort of physically emotional, relentless transformation. And, you know, I mean, I think it is what you were saying before about, you know, you don't know how people have three children. There definitely is something you know, nothing is as radical as having your first baby like it just because even you know, when you have a second baby, I just found I was on a high for a few weeks, because I wasn't terrified to about getting it all wrong. And I wasn't waking up every time thinking, Oh, my gosh, I'm in charge of a human, because I've done that without first. You know, but the reality is, having a family is really, really it's a big deal. And it is hard, emotionally, physically, financially. And I think what happens here in Australia is we're not giving parents the kind of support that parents are getting overseas that makes that easier. And we really are leaving them alone. And we're saying you're on your own you work this out and it is so hard. And there are you know, the isolation I think that is so often associated with having really little kids just compounds that sense of it feels like everybody else's life is easy. And you look at the Huggies ads and you think Hang on, absolutely. Not all your Instagram and you think why don't other people's why I have to be as messy as mine. And it's hard. And so I guess, I mean, I've obviously focusing at the moment a little bit on the emotional personal side of becoming a parent, because that's just where my head went. But at the parenthood, we're really focused on the policies that can change that. Because there isn't a policy in the world that can create a circumstance where, you know, having a baby won't be a radical transition it's going to be, but what are the kinds of things that we know globally, work really well, for moms and dads as well as kids? It's having decent paid parental leave, that enables parents, not just moms, and not just dads, but parents to actually be there for their children and provide for their family, create the routines, build that strong connection, those things. So what we know when mums and dads have the capacity to stay at home for an extended period in that first year. Sorry, can you hear that dog in the background? Oh, it's

Tara Ladd: 10:56

fine. We're all mums.

Georgie Dent: 11:01

Dogs don't listen to me. It's like my children. They don't always listen when I say it's not our dog. But so the thing is, what we know is that when mums and dads have the capacity in that first year of life to be with their children, establish those routines establish a connection. We know that children do better, they have better health outcomes. We know that the mental health of both mums and dads is significantly improved when both parents are supported to share the care. We know that when men are engaged in the caregiving women are able to go back to work sooner, and they stay connected to the paid workforce. Now, we're not at the parenthood, promoting this idea that all parents should just work full time and never see their children. But what we currently have in Australia is a situation where the norm remains that dads are breadwinners and mums, a caregivers. And we enable some flexibility and accommodation around that. But largely what we expect is, and this is what the working patterns show that when a dad has a baby. In Australia, he is paid working pattern, he actually increases his work and increases his salary. And mother reduces her work pattern, and then never regains the same work pattern and the same income level. Never sharing that and sort of splitting it in the middle actually works much better for moms, dads, and for children.

Tara Ladd: 12:27

Yep. And I think what I've what I really liked about what you just said, Then, and even though you called yourself out on it, you were talking about how you came from an emotional place. But I think that in order for those policies to you know, make life way you need to come from that place of emotion, like, you know, changes is led by emotion. And I think that that's, this is why I always harp on about women in leadership, right? Because coming from understanding, like, for instance, my husband took half of the paid parental leave. So we did the split. At the same time, I think a lot happened with you know, our kid was sick. So you know, he was off work a lot. So he had that initial development. So we find that, you know, with baby number two, that was just a no brainer. And I always say this to everyone, it's like, it's not even just the fact that sometimes men don't want to take that leave. It's just like, and I've I've got this question later on, but I'm going to jump to it now. It's just like, you know, it's it's employers that sometimes make the policies that they have for the men, like almost inaccessible for them because of that stereotype, and that that, you know, deeply rooted societal expectation of the women being the caregiver. So I guess, how do we go about that? If if the government does make these changes, and it does help us how to how do we change the narrative so that I guess employers and the I guess society understands that that can happen?

Georgie Dent: 13:52

Yeah. Look, it's a very good question. And the truth is that systemic problems require systemic solutions. Yeah. Now, so one of the things that we know is that dads in Australia at the moment take less than 20% of the parental leave that dads take globally. Now, I am very confident that that is not because dads in Australia have no interest in being engaged carers. Now. Sure, there might be some. But when you think about that percentage, that reflects the fact we've got policies, and then four, we've got workplaces and communities and a culture that doesn't expect dads to take leave. And so then the dad does take leave, in the same way that women are still discriminated against for being carers, dads face discrimination in the workplace. When dads do ask to take leave or when they asked for flexible work arrangements. They are discriminated against. And that's why we need this sort of policy shift to occur At a national federal level, yeah, you make way then for our workplaces and our families and our societies and all of the groups were part of whether it's part of the school moms, whether it's part of the group at daycare, whether it's your playgroup, you know, we are all a product, none of us exist in a vacuum. We are a product of the world around us. And in Australia, we aren't that comfortable, or we're just we're not that familiar with how outdated our systems are. Yeah. You know, at the parenthood, we did a piece of research last year that looked at what are the policies that would make Australia the best place in the world to be a parent. And a couple of them, two of them are what we're campaigning for ahead of this federal election of the 21st of May. And that is one year of paid parental leave that's shared between parents, and universal access to high quality early childhood education and care. There now, what our research showed is, those policies create systems change and cultural change. Because it is if we create a system, where it is not just where it's completely the norm for mums and adds where there are two petrol heterosexual partners, if the expectation is that both parents will take leave. And in fact, if if a dad doesn't take leave, the family loses a component of that entitlement. Dads take the leave. And then suddenly, if you think about what that would look like in the workplace, it would change pretty quickly. Because instead of having a situation where we know that Mums take sort of 99% of the parental leave, if we if we even that out even a little bit. Suddenly, workplaces would be filled with not just moms who work from home or mums who sort of have to constantly race out the door for pickup. But we'll read mums and dads doing that. And so we know from from the research that we did that these are the kinds of policies that would radically change things. Yeah, right. For the better.

Tara Ladd: 17:07

So what are you? What's your take on? I guess? Would you think that that would include a bump to the pay to the paid parental leave policy as well, like in terms of the leave payment? Because I think, I guess, in most dynamic family situations, right? The men are the breadwinners, like, I mean, we are seeing change here. And I guess this is like a catch 22. Right, because obviously men earn more because women take time, and then you know, it's just it kind of just keeps evolving like that. So if, in that circumstance, the man is the primary like buyer, a long, long shot, how do you see that shifting? If if they're going to almost drop half of their pay? And it's going to be like a financial shift? Do you think that that will even out with the, I guess, the childcare balance? Yes.

Georgie Dent: 17:55

And it is it is that thing, that that all of these issues are interconnected. And so the gender pay gap. It sort of compounds over time. And then it also feeds into, as you say, then into the decisions that families make about whether you earn more, it makes sense for you to keep working, and I'll take the time off. And while in the short term, that is often a financially rational decision. In the longer term, it's not Yeah, now the parenthood is campaigning for a replacement wage. So in other countries where they've got a paid parental leave scheme and a replacement wage, there's usually a cap. So we're not saying that a CEO who was earning $600,000 Would be paid$600,000. But if we decided on a replacement wage rate, with a cap in place, it still pays for itself, because of the productivity bump that you get from getting both people back into the workforce, but as well as the money that you save, because you're creating better health conditions for children. And that actually, you know, there's a saving in the long term for that, because you're reducing spending down the track. What we know, globally, the evidence is very clear that there are two things that determine whether or not dads take paid parental leave. The first is that it's paid decently. So when when a schema is at the minimum wage, it's far less likely that dads will take it under percent. Yep. And then the other factor is, is there a use it or lose it component? So if you've heard maybe in Sweden and Norway, they've got, you know, three months for mum, three months for dad, and then there's more that can be shared. But if the dad doesn't take those three months, the family doesn't get that they're

Tara Ladd: 19:44

right. Okay. So

Georgie Dent: 19:46

those use it or lose it. That mechanism is really effective at kind of getting a shift happening.

Tara Ladd: 19:55

Yeah, yeah, I like that. It's just it's like So many tangible things, right? Like and it's like you think of one thing, and then it's like counteracted by another thing, and it's just such a hard thing to think about. But I love the fact that it's like a forward thinking thing, right? It's like, you know, the long term, it's like, short term loss for a long term gain. And I think that that's so important. Which leads me to the next question, right? So during COVID, we noticed that a lot of women needed to leave the workforce. And that was labelled a pink pandemic. So what's your thoughts on that?

Georgie Dent: 20:28

Look, so there's just absolutely no doubt that the pandemic was incredibly distressing and damaging for Australians, and globally as well. But I'm more familiar with the facts and figures around Australia. And what we saw was that when the pandemic first hit, women sort of faced this triple whammy of impact. So women initially lost jobs far faster than men did. They were over represented in the lower paid roles that were on the frontline. So things like working in aged care, working in early education and care, working in retail in the supermarkets, you know, in the shops that were still open. So they were facing a sort of higher risk of contracting the virus at work. And the the, the third factor was that it was women predominantly, who took up the significant increase in domestic work that was necessitated because of the various lockdowns and shutdown. So whether it was because of the homeschooling having children at home. And that sort of created a perfect storm, where I mean, look, I can, I can speak to this we have, we have got three children, and my husband works in health. So he was working, he continued working outside of the home, I work full time, and trying to manage you know, I was a broken shell of a human, you know, and I'm incredibly lucky in that I have got a job that's got flexibility. My employers were good, there were definitely times where I had to say, like this week is just not going to look like a normal week. And I mean, ultimately, in Sydney, There ended up being quite a few months where that's what it was like, because just, it was not possible to try and give my children the physical and emotional support they needed to get through home learning, but also the emotional side of lockdowns to try and get my own job done, to try and still cook and clean and get groceries in without anyone available to help. It's just it's absolutely no wonder that we saw the mental distress, particularly of parents of primary school aged children and younger, suffered. And we have seen a lot of women sort of they gave up paid work, because they just couldn't do it. Yeah. And so, yes, COVID was disastrous for women. And the other thing is that if you think about back in those glorious days before sort of February 2021, we didn't know what this pandemic would look like, women were the cohort of the population who could least afford a recession of any kind, they could least afford to lose their job lose their shifts, because, you know, so we know at the moment that women over 55 are the fastest growing group of Australians who experience homelessness. Over the course of women's lives. It's called the reverse wealth trajectory. So the the harder they work in unpaid caring jobs, the harder they work in their low, paid caring jobs over the course of their lives, because they take the breaks to look after children to look after elderly relatives, because they bear the burden of pay gap. Instead of accumulating wealth over the course of their lives, they accumulate poverty. And so and that was in train when COVID hit. So with that, as the background, you know, we know that women retire with half the superannuation balance that men do. So to get to COVID, women couldn't afford to lose a single, no, and yet they lost them faster. And, you know, women's employment has come back. But again, what we've got to look at is, what are those jobs? Are they jobs, where it's possible to earn a living wage? Like, are you actually able to meet your cost of living, because if you're working in aged care, and you're only getting two casual shifts a week, that's going to be very difficult for you to be financially secure, even though technically you're employed.

Tara Ladd: 24:37

It's if I had this conversation, you know, like, I know this, obviously, that's why I've asked you to articulate it in the way that you can because you just knew all the stats and figures and we're good with it. I was having this conversation. It was on the women's agenda, LinkedIn comment. And I was talking about they they did the policy update, and they said that men had the same access to you know, the paid parental leave as the updated policy. But to me, I didn't find that any different to what was already available. It's just really you just transfer the policy to your other half. And I was like, well, so nothing really changed. They just changed the wording a little bit. So it sounded like they did something. That's to me what it felt like. And what I, what I've always been talking about is obviously advocating for superannuation paid on top of paid parental leave, because I think that that is just absolutely crucial. You know, like I said, short term, short term thing, long term gain. And this woman said to me, and I'm assuming she didn't have children, which is fair enough, but she was like, you know, why should we have to pay, you know that for and I was like, Okay, you're looking at this from a micro level. And obviously, I didn't take offence to it, because I can understand why these people may be annoyed. But it was kind of like you do realise that this generation that you're supporting right now are going to end up supporting you. So it's like your economic plan? Well, that's it's, you know, a significant part of the economic plan, right? Is that is that cohort of people that need to do that, and the fact that women and she was giving me the stats of which I find ironic being a woman as well, like, she was giving me the stats of, you know, superannuation, women in poverty over 55. It's because, you know, back then they didn't have retirement plans, and they stayed at home. And I'm like, yeah, maybe like 50 years ago, but we're talking pretty recent stuff now, like, so it. And obviously, the last comment, I said to her, call her out, and she didn't reply, but I was like, how many people are thinking like this? Because I think it's like, a lot of people just take offence to some of the things that you are saying, instead of actually really looking at what's happening around them. And I guess that's off the back of COVID to it was to everyone got really like, how is this affecting me, as opposed to how is this affecting the wider community, and it's very hard when you're dealing with whatever you're dealing with on an emotional level to try and think of other people. I can speak from experience from that. But it's so important that as a population, we do try and think of that, because these are the changes that really need to happen to support the whole country. You know, not just parents, even if you're a non parent, I'm going to jump to the question that I, I guess had at the bottom, like, you know, what do you say to people that don't have children? Like, how is this how is this message important to those people?

Georgie Dent: 27:28

Yeah, so there's a couple of things. I think that there's absolutely no doubt that right now, more than ever, and I mean, look, I've had a relatively public facing role for at least 10 years. And I would say that people are on edge and are exhausted, in a way I've never seen them. And I speak for myself as well in that in that way. And I think some of the public debate and discussion is going in that direction, because people are just exhausted. Yeah. And that's tricky. It's really tricky. Because it still hurts, you know, when but I mean, anyway, there's one thing that it's one thing to have a civilised discussion about and to have competing views on things. I think it's tricky when it becomes sort of personal and it denigrates and I guess this is where I've got a particular sensitivity, I think, what we started talking about about, you know, parents, the role of parents not sort of being fundamentally valued. Yep. And I think that's where it can be quite tricky as an individual parent, particularly, you know, when you're on parental leave, and you've got a baby who's not sleeping and a toddler that you're trying to manage, you know, the hit that you take psychologically, and then when you are walking around in the world, and it feels like everyone is telling you why you're doing the wrong thing, and why you shouldn't be entitled to anything else. I always want to step into that point and say, let's look at this contextually. Parents in Australia are being stranded, they literally are being stranded. Okay. And we all pay the price for that. So at the moment, we spend, it's estimated that we spent $15.2 billion on late interventions for children. Yeah, right. And that is just the child cost alone. So that is where health issues, social issues, behavioural issues, where they're not picked up early enough that they can be that you know, that you can have a successful intervention. Now, that in itself, I think is a very compelling economic rationale for why investing in policies that create better outcomes for children and parents is very worthwhile, because whether we like it or not, you know, whether I have individual children or not. When I get to the point where I might need to be going to hospital for something, I'm going to I have nurses there that are trained, I'm going to need to probably have a physio if I've got some sort of, you know, injury that needs helping, I'm going to need medical staff. We all will benefit from having a population that is well adjusted and supported to sort of live and thrive. And we know that investing in early education and care is one of the best investments we can make, to sort of give us all that long term economic benefit, and we all stand to benefit whether you've got children or not. If we can increase our national productivity, we increase the bottom line, if we create additional employment. So you know, this is because of one of the pieces around childcare that's really interesting is, again, you've got that intersection of issues for women, because the workforce is sort of more than 95% of early educators are women. Yeah, yeah, they're one of the lowest paid cohorts of workers in Australia. So a bricklayer, for example, with a cert three qualification earns just over $2,000. A week, an early educator with a cert three qualification earns about$953 a week. Now, we have got that situation is replicated for women in so many lines of work. And why is it because we don't value caring, the same reason that we don't value parenting because we think well, that should be easy, you can do that behind closed doors, and that everyone can do that. It's the same when it comes to early education, we don't fully appreciate the value of that work and how critically important it is. And in the pandemic, it was pretty amazing, because childcare was made free. But even more significant than that, to my mind was that we had a prime minister and an education minister who was standing up standing. Early education is an absolutely essential service. It is critical for families, it's critical for children, it's critical for the functioning of our society and communities that these services stay open. Now, it is devastating that after those three months, the free childcare was turned off. But worse than that early educators were taken off job keeper, the only cohort of workers who were taken off job keeper early, the only one wow, were these women who are already so poorly paid, who were forced to turn up to work on the frontline, effectively of a pandemic. Yep, who was still if you think about it now, children under five are the only sort of large group in the population who aren't even eligible to be vaccinated. So early educators going into a more high risk environment than anyone else. Now, would it surprise you if I said that a survey at the end of last year showed that 72% early educators are planning on leaving in three years, like within three years, because they are exhausted, they're burnt out, they're fed up and they can't do it. That's a disaster. Because we all desperately need a functioning Early Education and Care System. Parents need it. Children need it. early educators themselves need it. And employers need it. Because if if their employees don't have somewhere that safe and appropriate and inclusive and affordable for their children to go, they can't go to work. That's exactly

Tara Ladd: 33:17

right. And I think with the pandemic, right, one of the things that I guess there is a positive to come out of that. And it's probably good that the election is so close to that, what has just happened because the emotions are still so raw, you know, when daycare shut for us during the hard lockdown. Like we had, like both of us, I'm lucky that my husband works. He's able, you know, to work on a computer. So he was working remotely, but we were both sharing the load, I run a business, I started a business purely off the fact of all of these stats, you know, I was in advertising, I knew that this wasn't going to happen. I saw women come in, go out, come back with like, no any other qualification, like level of work that they they, you know, and I was like, You know what, I'm better than this. So, you know, I've created a workplace that actually, you know, supports what this is, you know, I pay super on top of the government paid parental leave, I'm a small business. And I think that there is a big thing that businesses can do here. And but the thing is, they should be supported by the government in doing that, as well. So I do agree with that. But I think off the back of the pandemic, we the parents, specifically fathers that were home, noticed what women did domestically, but they also noticed what the role of childcare did and not only just childcare, but teachers I think, you know, showing up when when parents had to teach their kids, everyone was like, Oh my gosh, like you know, let's just do the bare minimum and then they really noticed the extra work that teachers did and I have a few teacher mates so I know that they went through, you know, Hell and Back and you know, Nurse meets all of them. I know that it was so hard on those front liners, but the fact that I didn't know that they were the first lot to come off shopkeeper and that's so damn insulting. Because yeah, like they're keeping like as an it's insulting because they support me like this is an emotional thing they supported me to enable me to go back to work. So you know if they will leave and 70% do decide to leave then we're all screwed like not only just women but men as well from a whole family holistic point of view. And, you know, I think that that's just, that's just what I was saying. I've got a question here that kind of dips into that, but it was like, you know, the ability to keep up with rising costs of childcare just shows another case of privilege, I think, you know, you know, we're seeing the rich get richer, and you know, the everyday gets stared. And it's like, well, to be honest, I come from a place of privilege. I'm aware that you know, my husband I and good paying jobs so we can afford to pay for those good childcare centres. They're booked out for like two years like, so these other parents that don't have that money to pay to get into those places are dealt with having to go to lacklustre, maybe centres that aren't doing as good. And then therefore, they're not being educated as well. And there's, you know, I do know that they've got those quality frameworks involved for around the world. But it's kind of that case of higher childcare costs is absolutely screwing over women to choose places that just fit within their pay bracket, as opposed to fitting in that quality section. So I guess it's a holistic investment across the board, right, like, so what I guess what do you say about that?

Georgie Dent: 36:33

Yeah. So there's a lot in this sort of quality price piece around early learning. And I would say, wholeheartedly, I agree that the growing inequity that we have got in our society is a huge issue. Yeah. If you look at the Mitchell Institute put out a huge piece of research just recently that showed, you know, childcare deserts all around the country where there's places, you know, there's there's one childcare spot available for every eight children in different postcodes. And yes, most of them, it's worse in route in rural and regional areas. But there are also pockets in our capital cities, where it is impossible to get a position. And the issue that we have is one in five children arrive at school developmentally vulnerable at the moment in Australia. Now, in regional and rural areas, it's two in five children. For Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, it's two and five children arrive developmentally vulnerable. When those children arrive behind, they rarely, if ever catch up to their peers. They, they they sort of lifelong disadvantage from a social health, educational economic trajectory. When a child can attend even just one year of quality early learning before they start school, they're half as likely to arrive at school behind. So we know that investing in quality early learning and ensuring that every child regardless of where they live, and regardless of what their parents do, has access to quality early learning. And that's why we do need to change the frame and the lens at which we look at this. So you know, if you think about primary school last year, or I'm sorry, in 2020, and 2021, even though there were schools having to navigate remote learning and shutting down, no one had to worry that schools themselves would close and they would not have jobs and that parents would no longer have somewhere for their children to go for their education. Now, early education is funded completely differently. And it is largely funded by a mixture of government subsidies and parents out of pocket payments. And the reason that the government stepped in with the three months of free care was because services were going to fall over because parents were taking their kids out because they either had lost their jobs and couldn't afford to send their kids or they were terrified that their kids or them we're going to get COVID So they pulled them out. Basically, services, we're not going to be able to survive financially if all these parents just right, like took their kids out. And then again, as I said, there's all of these, you know, educators are not paid as well as teachers are sorry, early childhood education, educators are not paid as well as teachers are. They're also not impute employed as sort of security or we you know, there's there's a lot more casual employment than there is in the sort of teaching workforce. And we need to start looking at access to quality early learning in the same way that we do primary school, so whether your parents are unemployed or millionaires, wherever you leave, if you've got a child who's turning five or six in any given year, there's a spot for them at the local primary school that you want to get take them to a private school you can but you are entitled to it. send your child there and you don't have to justify that expense. You know, as a taxpayer, I don't have to show anybody my income statements, our children are entitled to go to the local, private primary school, it would be the same with you, when you're older, it won't matter what you earn. If you want to send your children to primary school, that's where that will go. And that's really what we need to do for early education and care. Because if you step back and think about what an early education system, like how it should work, and who it should serve, you think, Well, firstly, it needs to work. We need children to be getting the best possible outcomes they can. At the moment, our system is not doing that, for at least one in five kids. It's not doing that, well, we need a system that works for parents. At the moment, women in Australia are the 75th, ranked for female workforce participation, despite being number one in the world, education wise. We've got you know, in February last year, there were 140,000 Australians who said that they didn't look for work but want a job, but couldn't because they couldn't afford or access childcare. 90% of those are mums. Yeah, we've got a question where educators are leaving in droves. So if we say our system isn't working for children, it's not working for parents, and it's not working for educators,

Tara Ladd: 41:23

isn't working for no one.

Georgie Dent: 41:27

Which is why as the parenthood says, We've got to go back, we've got to come and look at doing it differently. The subsidy model doesn't work, it just the prices just go up and up and up. So even when the government does make additional investments and says, look, here's another $1.7 billion, and it'll go to the, you know, if you've got two kids in care, and they can, it does alleviate a small pressure point for a small amount of time, the fees just keep going up and up and up. And it's not working well enough. So we need to re, we need to reimagine our early learning system. And, you know, I mean, I'm really passionate about this. And I am also emotional about it, that we could dramatically and radically improve the lives of so many Australians, so many decent paid parental leave and quality early learning.

Tara Ladd: 42:15

Yep. And I think like, even if you're talking about free childcare, right, like, this just puts into perspective, what we have just dealt with, like, you know, even like, six months, goes to daycare, he has been probably all four times and every time that he goes, he comes back sick, right? And then you can't send them anymore when they're sick, like not that I would have done that to begin with, I've got an immunocompromised kid, but you know, you can't send them sick, and but it takes them a good two weeks to come back. So then you go to daycare for the whole three days that he goes, he gets sick, he takes three weeks off, and he goes back. So I'm paying essentially, for a month's worth of daycare. And he goes for a week of it. And so like, you know, having that be free, is just such a financial like, release from us. Like, you know what I mean? Like just Well,

Georgie Dent: 43:06

yes, that's huge. But also then imagine if your family had 12 months of income. Yeah, that meant and it's not necessarily that everyone that you can't go back to work sooner. But imagine if you had the financial buffer of knowing that you could do that, because then maybe you get a babysitter to come in a couple of things out. That's exactly right. You know, it just creates a bit more flexibility at the moment, because we've got really inadequate paid parental leave, and then we've got super expensive childcare. Parents are kind of, it's just like a perfect storm. And you can, again, why a lot of people in that situation, they would look at doing that for three weeks and think this is not worth it. It's not worth my time thought about it. Right, I'm going to quit, and I'm not going to work. And we'll just go ahead. And the thing is for some families, that's possible. And that's amazing, when that's what families truly choose. But I'm sick of being told that parents choose. Yeah, yeah. What is happening right now? It's not just it's all that it's the only option on the table. Yep.

Tara Ladd: 44:13

And it's like, it's full. That leads me into this question. Exactly. Right. So we all need to look at the fact that this doesn't only affect hetero couples, you know, but same sex couples as well. So if you have two women in a relationship, that would not only face the burden of the childcare split, but also the gender pay gap on top of that. So personally, and for the first time this year, I was extremely disappointed in the knock back of the superannuation that was paid on top of the paper and to leave. So if we're going to talk about the motherhood penalty, and I know you have a lot to say about that, like, how does it impact women from I guess from a superannuation level? Yeah, well, I

Georgie Dent: 44:48

mean, the thing is, it's the superannuation situation for mothers in Australia is appalling. But in the parenthood we did, we did a smaller piece of Research at the end of last year called back of the pack. Yeah, how Australia's parenting policies are failing women. And we looked at the workforce patterns of mothers in Australia, Canada, Germany, and Sweden. And it sort of highlighted the fact that women in Australia work more and are very highly qualified. But when they have children, their workforce participation drops, and it never catches up. Now, the research that we did show that if Australia had the same workforce pattern for mums that Sweden has, women would earn an additional $693,000 over the course of their life and retire with an additional $180,000. In Super. When you think at the moment, the average super balance for a woman who's over 50, is sort of hovering somewhere around $200,000. Can you imagine how radically improved their super balances would be just from the difference in workforce patterns? If we were supporting women, and they could have another $180,000 in their super, and I've had all of that additional money over their working life, you think about the choices that that would create?

Tara Ladd: 46:13

Doesn't it make you it just makes me so mad like, and you hear about all the stats of women, and you know, girls leaving school with high academic scores and outperforming males and men and, and then they go into the workforce, and they they choose to have children? You know, some don't, but most do. And then they're absolutely penalised for it. And it just, it burns me so bad that that is just such that's such a hard figure. I think that a lot of women listening to this right now need to understand, and why we need to be reading things as we head into, you know, to vote in in a couple of weeks. Because it's so, so important. I mean, I've loved everything about this chat, Georgie. But I guess I want to ask you, is there something that you feel people need to know that we haven't touched on in our conversation?

Georgie Dent: 47:05

Thank you. No, I have really enjoyed this chat. And I guess the big takeaway, I suppose, is that it doesn't have to be as hard as it is. It doesn't have to be this hard solutions exist. And we do have a moment in time because the federal election is happening. Well, we can ask our the candidates around us where they stand on these issues. And, you know, in the very beginning, you sort of touched on the video that I was part of a Head of International Women's Day, and that was a safety respect equity video that I made with a group of other women. And really, what that video tried to capture was that last year, you know, 2021 wasn't the first year that women had been sexually harassed or assaulted or belittled or ignored or dismissed or discriminated against. None of that was new. But what did change last year was people started to listen. Yeah, or, and the more they listened, the more familiar the story became. And there was sort of this collective sense of actually, you know what, this isn't just me, it's not just the odd anecdote, this is systemic. And I think at this election, we have a moment in time to vote for values, and the values that I think matter are safety, respect, equity, and they are values that we can vote for, you know, there are we know there are policies that would make a positive difference for this country, and we can demand them. Yeah. So I would just urge everybody to be really mindful ahead of the election. Look, who is in your seat, look who's running. Ask them right to them. You know, through the parenthood, we've got a whole lot of templates where you can write to your local member, ask them where they stand on these issues, and let them know what matters to you, because things can only improve, and they will only improve if we sort of collectively work together to make that the reality and I am confident that we can do that. So yeah, join the parenthood. Look us up on the socials. I really appreciate you having this chat with me because I've just, I'm pretty passionate about this stuff.

Tara Ladd: 49:23

Me too. And I like I think that, you know when and I think most women right have been watching this narrative change. And I think everyone and you know, you hear about sexual assault and safety at work and, you know, all these discrimination, things that happen to them is just for being a woman, like all of these things happen. And I asked a question on, you know, my personal page on Instagram, and if anyone wants to go and have a look at to highlight what men have said to them, and some of it started off quite, you know, G rated and then it went to some pretty heavy shit and I was like, Oh my gosh, Like, what is this? What is it and I had to make it a highlight because the content that was coming out of this was just like, wow, like to the point where I was reading things from from women that I know that have happened to them in the past. And, you know, even to the point where I had a conversation with my mom who said that she had an issue when she was younger. And I was just like, this isn't just something that you hear about this is happening to our sisters and our mothers and our friends and our daughters. And that creates such an emotional trigger. And I think putting that out there, let I guess a lot of the men that we know know that this is this is their wives and uses their friends. And this isn't just something that you hear about. And it's it's I feel that there's there's just something in the air now, like it's I think women are kind of not not staying silent anymore. I don't know what you think about that. But there's there's definitely something brewing. Yeah, I

Georgie Dent: 50:51

definitely agree with that. And I think the other thing that we tried to sort of talk about in the video, or, you know, point out is that all of these issues are connected. So if you have don't have a job, if you don't have some form of financial security, then you are more likely to stay in an abusive relationship or stay in a workplace where you're sexually harassed or assaulted or worse. That you know, these you cannot. gender inequity is so inextricably linked with with women being violated in workplaces, in homes, like right around the country. And we have to look at the sort of systemic solutions that will fix that. And, you know, for example, the respect at work report that Kate Jenkins prepared. Yeah, if that was implemented in full, the primary thing that would change is that there was going to be a positive duty on employers to ensure that their workplace was safe. Now, when that happened with OHS laws, you know, 20 years ago, when individual directors were going to be held personally liable for errors, guess what things changed, improved dramatically. Yeah. And the same thing can happen. But we've got to have, we've got to let our voices be heard and say, this is something we're voting for. Now, if a politician, party or candidate isn't willing to back in these sorts of systemic changes, I do not think they're the right party or candidate for our country.

Tara Ladd: 52:19

I would agree with that wholeheartedly. And off the back of what Georgie just said, guys, I wrote a co wrote an article for Smart Company off the back of that respect at work piece, they only put through six out of the 55 recommendations. So if you want to read about that, and what was put forward, I highly recommend that you read that especially heading into the election. Because it's crucial, not only just for us now, but how we evolve for the future generations. For now, Georgie, why don't you let everyone know where they can actually find you?

Georgie Dent: 52:52

Yeah, sure. So you can find us on Instagram. Our handle is just the parenthood. You can look us up on Facebook where the parenthood project, you can look us up online at the parenthood.org.au you can find me on Twitter at Georgie dent. Actually, all my handles are pretty much totally down there. And Instagram, just Google it. But yeah, come and join us at the Parenthood because I am excited. And we definitely have seen a sort of spike in the appetite among our members. And we know that that's hard because our members are working parents and then also their time or, but we are trying to take a lot of the hard work out of it so that you can just join, add your name, send off the letter, we're trying to make it as easy as possible. But even if you do nothing else, except think very carefully about who you want to lead us. Wherever you're living, whoever the candidates in your local area are. I know that that will serve us

Tara Ladd: 53:51

well. Amazing. So guys also head over and sign up to that mailing list because I'm part of that and I just love it when it drops into my inbox full of great information and suggestions. So thanks so much, Georgie. I really appreciate you joining me today.

Georgie Dent: 54:07

That is my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Tara Ladd: 54:16

If you enjoyed this episode, then don't forget to head over and rate and review. It helps let other women know we're around. Also, don't forget to follow along on my Instagram page @iamtaraladd or hit up www.taraladd.com